Twilight Princess

[Secant]

(warning: extremely long post)

 

@Jotokun

 

Your post is brilliant and I love and agree with all of it, except with your comments regarding Twilight Princess. To address your points one by one:

 

Transformation mechanic? MM.

True, transformation was already included in Majora's Mask, but this was a different mechanic. Combat as a wolf relied predominantly on evasion, as you had few means of defense--personally, I found this to be a nice change.

 

Twilight Realm? ALttP says hi.

I'll hand you the Twilight Realm, but see below.

 

Ganondorf? Same old stereotypical villain Ganondorf instead of someone with a genuinely clear motive fueled by understandable reasoning.

Ganondorf was one aspect of the game that actually did leave me somewhat disappointed. I would have been very happy had Zant turned out to be the real final antagonist, but everything ended up coming together in such a typical manner. With that said, however, Zant as a villain was, in my opinion, executed very well; here we have a man stripped of his land and jealous of people who live in the world of light, and he wants revenge, so he usurps the throne of his people and bends them to his will, leading an army to corrupt the world of Hyrule and take it for his own. True, it's the same "take over the world" song and dance, but at least there's a justification behind it now.

 

NPCs? Static and, for many of them downright annoying and unrelatable people .

I'll hand you this one without the disclaimer; the group residing in Telma's bar never felt closer to me than acquaintances even with their somewhat heroic appearance near the end of the game where they blast an aeralfos out of the sky. Everyone else was, well, everyone else. To Nintendo's credit, though, most non-generic NPC's did at least have some degree of personality. However, I can't say I found anyone particularly annoying.

 

Fetch quest padding? Frequent.

I don't like fetch quests, either.

 

Combat? Wiggle the wii remote until victory.

In my not-so humble opinion, Twilight Princess is only a GameCube game. Why it was released on the Wii is beyond me; that version is a joke.

 

Puzzles? Press switch, hit glowing spot.

True, few unique gameplay mechanics came into play here. However, some navigational abilities (such as full-3D swimming and underwater sword combat as well as the double clawshot mechanic) did crop up to make things more interesting, but for the most part they adhered to the core concepts. Again, see below.

 

Music? Aside from Midna's themes and remixes, bland and uninspiring.

This is where I draw the line from mild disagreement to vehement opposition. As a musician, I would like to think I have a vague idea of what makes music good or bad, and I can honestly say Twilight Princess is one of my favorite soundtracks. An example: Consider the

. The default version, yes, seems to be missing something. Why is this? Because when you obtain your horse and ride out into the fields, that is how the world should be seen, truly capturing the freedom conveyed by the vastness of the landscape. What then follows is a bursting orchestra trumpeting forth that feeling of vastness, and I can honestly say the first time I mounted Epona and started riding through Hyrule Field, that music sent shivers down my spine. This is only one example of Koji Kondo's masterful work; many of the Twilight-themed songs do so much to convey the alien nature of the race and the ambiance of the world.

 

Overworld? Empty and oversized to realistically use for travel.

With that gushing aside though, yes, the world is huge, but it could have had more filling, so to speak. It's realistic, but that's not always what a video game should aim to be. Functional use of space is the norm, and anything different often doesn't look good. So, point conceded.

 

There was nothing really "dark" about the game aside from your generic "Evil guy is taking over the land".

Again, I'll oppose this point. Think about what the game exposes you to; while in Ocarina of Time there are vague implications that people are endangered by Ganondorf and his minions, it largely has to be inferred from the transition from the child world to the adult world, whereas in Twilight Princess you frequently see people immediately threatened. Remember in Kakariko Village when the bomb merchant (can't for the life of me remember his name) brings up the invasion of the Twili? There you see people directly threatened by some hideous beasts that came from nowhere and brought with them death to any who stood in their way, while the children huddle around the shaman cowering in terror. The game frequently shoves this directly in the player's face at nearly every opportunity; if this isn't dark to you, I shudder to think what your nightmares consist of.

 

So with all of that out of the way, I personally enjoyed Twilight Princess immensely and herald it as one of the better games in the franchise (though Majora's Mask still easily takes the gold standard as you so aptly put it, sheerly from its atmosphere and brilliant gameplay mechanics, but that's another story). Why is this? Because, at its core, it's a Zelda game for the modern gamer. Some people missed out on Ocarina of Time when it was in its prime and N64 games were thought to have very good graphics for console games. Hopefully without opening that can of worms, I think we can agree most gamers prefer better graphics over less detailed visuals, at least in the case of 3D games. So that's exactly what Nintendo tried to do: They wanted to deliver a game that was your classical Zelda, no extra gimmicks, no strings attached, just updated for the modern gamer. That, in turn, would suggest that whether Twilight Princess is "good" or not is largely a matter preference. Whether you're a traditionalist like myself or someone who can't stand games that refuse to innovate, I'd imagine, should succinctly reflect how you feel about Twilight Princess.

 

Still, I would like to think most of us can agree it wasn't a complete failure; the story, while somewhat worn, perhaps, wasn't badly executed. The combat was familiar with a few of the neat moves we got from Wind Waker integrated into the game in a more accessible manner (rather than dodge and counter moves they had actual button combinations for using them). The visuals were pretty decent all things considered, even if some parts of the overworld felt empty or desolate. These things are fairly objective, and I'd say considering what Twilight Princess has in that regard, that keeps it out of the "crap" category, and whether you classify this game as awesome or just meh is purely a matter of taste.

 

That is, of course, just my take on it.

[Conker]

You must not have been playing it right.

 

Oh, really? That's really mature.

So, riddle me this: a bunch of watch towers and islands with enemies on them to kill, items to find.

Then in Hyrule Field, we have a vast landscape with enemies to kill, and items to find. Do you see what I'm seeing?

 

Yeah, guess what:

SAME THING, DIFFERENT SCENERY. It doesn't matter if it's an ocean with watch towers or islands, or a field with a lot of trees(yeah, I said a lot; you're just stretching the truth about the game to match your argument, which is not something ANY serious debater does), you still do the same stuff. Golly, nice one.

 

Well... you asked for an opinion. We disagree.

 

When in the heck did I ask for an opinion? That was Jason, not me. I'll happily disagree with anybody all the merry day.

Now, if I made this topic myself, I probably would have had a different mindset about this all; but it still stands that I didn't ask for your opinion.

 

Also, your entire argument about TP and it doing nothing new? When in the heck did any Zelda game do anything new storywise? They all have the most cliché stories imaginable, as well as villains.

News flash: Zelda games do not have to do something new and impressive to be good, and their stories certainly don't have to be some masterpiece like you think they should be, because they never have been(again, they're cliché, and overdone stories).

 

Also, as for your remark about gameplay? Yeah, might as well kick yourself for playing the wrong one; the GameCube version is the better one, and this topic was about IT to begin with.

And I know it's not a personal attack. At least you don't make it into a personal attack like zaneebaslave does with the "playing the game wrong" shit.

[zaneebaslave]

I don't remember ANY island in WW to be completely the same as the other islands. I think that was the point of the islands. See, unlike TP, there was actually things to explore in WW, which is why I am saying: You obviously weren't playing it right. See, if you played it right, you would find out that there was actually stuff to do in the overworld, despite it being slightly redundant. Hell, I'd rather it be redundant then be a huge expanse of land that I just wanted to skip entirely. You couldn't even explore TP's overworld when you wanted to. When first you even see Hyrule Field, you have to instantly turn on your sense power, which completely blacks out the environment. And once you finally collect every single bug-tear, Midna would make it so you can just teleport away. Nice game mechanic. In OoT, despite it being an empty blot of land, you were actually excited to get there! There was build-up to that very point! There was a world outside of the Lost Woods! None of your Kokiri race has ever seen it! In TP, there was build-up just like in OoT, but when you leave the forest and go to hyrule field, you feel instantly inclined to rush out and save those kids. Perhaps I would have liked it a bit more if that damn sense power wouldn't make everything black.

 

So far, all you've even used as an argument is "Well you say TP had problems? Look at all the OTHER Zelda games' problems, and they're just the same!" Well, perhaps Nintendo shouldn't have incorporated every flaw of gameplay from other Zelda games into one massive soup-pot and made a game with it. The fatal flaw of TP is that it took too much from the other Zelda games. It was like the Frankenstein's monster of Zelda games, being created by the dead little bits of tissue from it's past predecessors. It was uninspired gaming, with not much of it's own creativity to sell us. I spent the entire game saying "Oh, this game mechanic is a lot like ALTTP" or "Oh, this game mechanic was a lot like MM". Perhaps all the other games had some flaws like in TP, but that was because they had it first, and TP just copied it. :\

[xdaniel]

Know what? This discussion makes me want to replay TP - GCN version btw - because I last played it when it came out (trying the WW/TP debug display stuff notwithstanding) and I can't really remember much of it. All I can remember are fragments like "Wolf Link was really cool, just running around in that form was awesome", "Hyrule Field was probably too big for how little there was in it, plus the bottomless pits", "Have they since revisited the Double Clawshot or whatever it was called? If not, that's a shame", "Midna is the best sidekick in the series, period", things like that.

 

Also, somewhat related question, how expensive is the GCN version elsewhere? Here, it's 40 to 50€ used, and there's one new copy on Amazon for 200€. Wonder what the ratio between GCN and Wii versions is, in both production and sales numbers...

[Secant]

I don't remember ANY island in WW to be completely the same as the other islands. I think that was the point of the islands. See, unlike TP, there was actually things to explore in WW, which is why I am saying: You obviously weren't playing it right. See, if you played it right, you would find out that there was actually stuff to do in the overworld, despite it being slightly redundant.

A counterargument, then, is that you weren't playing Twilight Princess correctly, because you missed out on all the caverns and grottos scattered throughout the world, following the logic you present. What about the plethora of minigames included in the overworld, such as fishing, the fruit popping game, and canoeing down the river?

 

Hell, I'd rather it be redundant then be a huge expanse of land that I just wanted to skip entirely. You couldn't even explore TP's overworld when you wanted to.

Six and a half dozen. Take your pick--vast expanses of grass and hills, or vast expanses of ocean. Also, might I posit the beginning of the game in Wind Waker where you are forced to first visit Forsaken Fortress, then Windfall, then Dragon Roost Island before you're finally free to explore where you want to go? Actually, the King of Red Lions may even bar you from straying too far from your goal until after beating the Forbidden Woods, I'm not too sure. At least in Twilight Princess, you're free to completely explore an area once you've cleared it of Twilight.

 

In OoT, despite it being an empty blot of land, you were actually excited to get there! There was build-up to that very point! There was a world outside of the Lost Woods! None of your Kokiri race has ever seen it! In TP, there was build-up just like in OoT, but when you leave the forest and go to hyrule field, you feel instantly inclined to rush out and save those kids. Perhaps I would have liked it a bit more if that damn sense power wouldn't make everything black.

Just the same, there's a world beyond Ordon Village/Woods, and it's huge. I don't know about you, but when I finally made it to Hyrule Field and saw that cutscene showcasing just how vast the field was, my first thoughts were not at all related to how empty it might have been. Also, if you feel an inclination to rescue the Ordon children, that's indicative of successful character development and the player being attached to them as a result. Rarely does this happen in games, and when it does happen, it's a very good thing.

 

Well, perhaps Nintendo shouldn't have incorporated every flaw of gameplay from other Zelda games into one massive soup-pot and made a game with it. The fatal flaw of TP is that it took too much from the other Zelda games. It was like the Frankenstein's monster of Zelda games, being created by the dead little bits of tissue from it's past predecessors. It was uninspired gaming, with not much of it's own creativity to sell us. I spent the entire game saying "Oh, this game mechanic is a lot like ALTTP" or "Oh, this game mechanic was a lot like MM". Perhaps all the other games had some flaws like in TP, but that was because they had it first, and TP just copied it. :\

In general, I just don't see where you're coming from. Wind Waker borrowed from quite a few Zelda games that came before its time as far as mechanics are concerned, and it borrowed from many of the same ones as Twilight Princess. I fail to see, then, how you can hold it in such high regard and condemn Twilight Princess. Also, to add to that, you might want to reread the last few paragraphs of my enormous post above yours, it addresses this as well. They borrowed from core mechanics that make a Zelda game--if you don't like those then it seems to me you probably wouldn't like any Zelda game, yet you do.

 

Also, just for a reference, saying someone is playing the game wrong is a rather damning and impolite accusation, and I wouldn't really consider it something you should mention in a debate like this. Everyone plays the game in their own way and gets a different experience out of it; no one way is objectively superior to another.

[Conker]

I was typing up a very long post that would basically be the same as Naxy's; making the same points, arguments, etc.

Anyways, Naxy made the post, now mine is unnecessary. However, I still have somethings from it I need to mention, as I feel I need to defend myself:

 

I played the game right. Why do you keep saying that I didn't? Is it because you are literally incapable of having a mature debate? Is that it?

Your entire side of the debate is you trying to pass stuff off as fact; YOUR experience is the SAME ONE everyone else had. Are you so full of yourself you actually believe that's true?

 

Look, I don't mean to reverse this all on you, but since you're so inclined to keep saying it to others yourself:

You played Twilight Princess wrong. Very, very wrong. In fact, with the points Naxy made of Wind Waker, I'd go as far to say you even played THAT wrong.

[Mellow]

I'm just going to sum up this entire argument,

 

Opinions are opinions. No use trying to talk someone into believing yours. Some people love TP, some people hate it. Same thing applies to every game ever made, except maybe Superman 64.

 

Personally, Twilight Princess is one of my favorites, along with Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. That's my own opinion, it likely differs from yours. Such is the way with human beings.

[Arceny]

I've never played Twilight Princess, but always wanted it for my Gamecube. The graphics to me in 2006 appealed to me (probably because they were dark and edgy).

 

When I've seen reviews of this game, I never understood why people didn't like it. It was their answer to the hate of Toon Link, right?

 

 

 

Btw,Also, Blinx, I think the reason why OoT is so boring is because it's kinda overrated; people talk about it too much, it drives you insane.

 

That doesn't mean its not a good game, though...

 

And Jotokun gave such a powerful speech...

[Conker]

Btw,Also, Blinx, I think the reason why OoT is so boring is because it's kinda overrated; people talk about it too much, it drives you insane.

 

That doesn't mean its not a good game, though...

 

So, you missed the part where I expressed why I dislike OoT as much I do now? Go back and find it, I'm not repeating myself. Dx

[Mellow]

Ocarina of Time is a good game. It just hasn't aged as well as, say, Majora's Mask. It's just over lived its fame.

[Arceny]

So, you missed the part where I expressed why I dislike OoT as much I do now? Go back and find it, I'm not repeating myself. Dx

 

Ahh.. Blinx, Blinx, when will you discover I have opinions on people's opinions?

 

Anyway, that's the reason I don't really hold it on a pedestal anymore...

[Conker]

Ahh.. Blinx, Blinx, when will you discover I have opinions on people's opinions?

 

You really shouldn't form an opinion of someone's opinion if you have no idea what their opinion is.

[Arceny]

You really shouldn't form an opinion of someone's opinion if you have no idea what their opinion is.

 

But that's my opinion... O heavens, this is going nowhere...

 

Meantime, nothing beats a good debate! Am I right fellas?

[zaneebaslave]

A counterargument, then, is that you weren't playing Twilight Princess correctly, because you missed out on all the caverns and grottos scattered throughout the world, following the logic you present. What about the plethora of minigames included in the overworld, such as fishing, the fruit popping game, and canoeing down the river?

 

You mean those three that only appeared in or around Lake Hylia? It doesn't SCREAM plethora, to me. I didn't have anything against Lake Hylia in that game, quite frankly, it was my favorite place... Mostly because it was the only place to actually do anything. Everywhere else in the game was sorrowfully devoid of life, and often boring to even traverse through.

 

Six and a half dozen. Take your pick--vast expanses of grass and hills, or vast expanses of ocean. Also, might I posit the beginning of the game in Wind Waker where you are forced to first visit Forsaken Fortress, then Windfall, then Dragon Roost Island before you're finally free to explore where you want to go? Actually, the King of Red Lions may even bar you from straying too far from your goal until after beating the Forbidden Woods, I'm not too sure. At least in Twilight Princess, you're free to completely explore an area once you've cleared it of Twilight.

Meh, you got me there.

 

Just the same, there's a world beyond Ordon Village/Woods, and it's huge. I don't know about you, but when I finally made it to Hyrule Field and saw that cutscene showcasing just how vast the field was, my first thoughts were not at all related to how empty it might have been. Also, if you feel an inclination to rescue the Ordon children, that's indicative of successful character development and the player being attached to them as a result. Rarely does this happen in games, and when it does happen, it's a very good thing.

It's not really good "character development" when you are forced to stay on route, and cannot stray too far because of giant black walls. Honestly, I couldn't give two shits about the kids, on account that they kept stealing my stuff and getting in trouble. I couldn't explore, even the slightest bit outside the "zone" I spawned in to explore. In Ocarina of Time, you could go almost anywhere you wanted after you left Kokiri Woods. In fact, the castle instantly closes before you can even Go to the next destination, so that you WILL explore the other places. Twilight Princess was suffocating in that aspect.

 

 

 

In general, I just don't see where you're coming from. Wind Waker borrowed from quite a few Zelda games that came before its time as far as mechanics are concerned, and it borrowed from many of the same ones as Twilight Princess. I fail to see, then, how you can hold it in such high regard and condemn Twilight Princess. Also, to add to that, you might want to reread the last few paragraphs of my enormous post above yours, it addresses this as well. They borrowed from core mechanics that make a Zelda game--if you don't like those then it seems to me you probably wouldn't like any Zelda game, yet you do.

I like EVERY Zelda game besides this one, because even if they borrowed from other games, they at least were original. My point was that this game borrowed itself into existence. Aside from some details (Of which I LIKED, mind you, such as Midna... even though she was basically Navi) it was all taken from other games.

 

Also, just for a reference, saying someone is playing the game wrong is a rather damning and impolite accusation, and I wouldn't really consider it something you should mention in a debate like this. Everyone plays the game in their own way and gets a different experience out of it; no one way is objectively superior to another.

 

I regret nothing.

[Conker]

But that's my opinion... O heavens, this is going nowhere...

 

Are you trying to be nonsensical right now? I am unable to make sense of you at all.

[Arceny]

Are you trying to be nonsensical right now? I am unable to make sense of you at all.

 

Yes, Blinx; I should have stated in my introduction here that I'm a bit "nonsensical"...

 

 

But aren't we all.

 

Edited: at times, of course.

[Secant]

You mean those three that only appeared in or around Lake Hylia? It doesn't SCREAM plethora, to me. I didn't have anything against Lake Hylia in that game, quite frankly, it was my favorite place... Mostly because it was the only place to actually do anything. Everywhere else in the game was sorrowfully devoid of life, and often boring to even traverse through.

Twilight Princess features a total of nine minigames, listed as:

1. STAR
   
2. Fruit Pop
   
3. Flight-by-Fowl
   
4. Yeti Sledding
   
5. Iza's Rapid Ride
   
6. Cat Hide 'n' Seek (in the hidden village after you have cleared the place of bokoblins)
   
7. Ordon Sheep Herding
   
8. Fishing
   
9. Rollgoal (a hidden game also found in the fishing area).
   

While Winder Waker boasts the following list:

1. Mail Sorting
   
2. Octorok Cannon Game
   
3. Sliding Puzzle (in Private Oasis)
   
4. Pig Hide 'n' Seek
   
5. Auction Night
   
6. Merman Target Practice
   
7. Barrel Shooting
   
8. Boating Course
   
9. Bird-Man Contest
   

Exactly the same for both games. In terms of collectables, Wind Waker probably does boast a few more categories, but really, that's getting so far into the knitty-gritty and subjective territory that it probably isn't worth mentioning. One other thing I might mention is that there is technically still something to do while traversing both the fields of Twilight Princess and the seas in Wind Waker, and that is encountering monster ambushes. However, in Twilight Princess they are a bit more frequent rather than completely random as they were in Wind Waker, though fortunately neither ubiquitous nor inescapable, so if you don't feel like dealing with enemies then you can always charge past them.

 

It's not really good "character development" when you are forced to stay on route, and cannot stray too far because of giant black walls. Honestly, I couldn't give two shits about the kids, on account that they kept stealing my stuff and getting in trouble. I couldn't explore, even the slightest bit outside the "zone" I spawned in to explore. In Ocarina of Time, you could go almost anywhere you wanted after you left Kokiri Woods. In fact, the castle instantly closes before you can even Go to the next destination, so that you WILL explore the other places. Twilight Princess was suffocating in that aspect.

That's fair then, I didn't really like them either and would have been surprised if they had grown on you much, though I will say it was fairly invigorating to chase down King Bulbin after he kidnapped Colin and whack him off his mount into a bottomless chasm off the bridge, and the rescue after was heartwarming. As for your latter point, that's fair; linear gameplay isn't for everyone.

 

I like EVERY Zelda game besides this one, because even if they borrowed from other games, they at least were original. My point was that this game borrowed itself into existence. Aside from some details (Of which I LIKED, mind you, such as Midna... even though she was basically Navi) it was all taken from other games.

Here are some things we never saw before Twilight Princess:

• Double Clawshots
  
• Spinner
  
• Ball and Chain
  
• Bomb Arrows
  
• Water Bombs
  
• Hawkeye for precision aiming
  
• Fully controllable swimming
  
• A realistic 3D Zelda game on the GCN/Wii
  

You can nitpick about the miniscule nature of these additions to the series all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that they exist and were new at the time of release. Twilight Princess borrowed heavily, but not exclusively.

 

I regret nothing.

Not exactly a good mentality to undertake in a debate, but I'll trust that you'll keep any further impolite statements to yourself in the future.

[xdaniel]

Here are some things we never saw before Twilight Princess:

• Bomb Arrows

Nitpick, nitpick, Link's Awakening; otherwise in agreement, I guess, tho I didn't participate in the debate in the first place...

[Conker]

Nitpick, nitpick, Link's Awakening; otherwise in agreement, I guess, tho I didn't participate in the debate in the first place...

 

Wasn't that just a glitch, so it in no way officially counts?

[xdaniel]

Wasn't that just a glitch, so it in no way officially counts?

 

First time I'm hearing that. I heard about them back in the day, probably even before we had internet and before I went looking for oddities in games, so I don't think that's the case... Also, it just feels like intended behavior - if it was a glitch, I'd expect an arrow to be fired and a bomb be placed in front of Link, or that the arrow fires and the bomb explodes right away, not that the bomb stick to the tip of the arrow, gets carried by it, and explodes on impact.

[Conker]

I was just going off of something I read somewhere. It was no doubt bad information.

[xdaniel]

I was just going off of something I read somewhere. It was no doubt bad information.

 

Looking around just now, I did see it mentioned as a potential glitch on one or two Zelda wikis. Someone probably would need to disassemble (part of) the game to determine once and for all. What can be said for sure is that LA's Bomb Arrows were known long before TP was in development, so even if it is a glitch, it's not too farfetched that the devs knew about it and decided to implement it as a "proper item" in TP.

[Conker]

Yeah, good point. But TP still brought a good amount of originality to the Zelda table, either way.

[xdaniel]

Yep, that's true. Item-wise alone, I do like the Double Clawshot a lot for example, and I wish they'd done more with that since.

[Secant]

To Nintendo's credit, the Double Clawshot makes a direct reappearance in Skyward Sword. Needless to say, I was joyed about that. Unfortunately, it plays a far less significant role than it does in Twilight Princess.